I have a yellow tang in my 120 gallon mixed LPS/soft reef which is covered in pinhead sized black spots. The fish has full color, I believe is eating normally, and shows no other symptoms whatsoever.

There are a number of other fish and one shrimp in the tank, which has been up since September (yes, I know it's a bit early to have a lot of fish, but emergencies occurred) :

 2 YT blue damsels (1 in, 8 years old)

1 Sailfin tang (7 in)

1 Yellow tang (6 in)

2 very small CB Flametail blennies (1 in each)

1 Diadem Pseodochromis (2 in)

1 seagrass/bristletail filefish (doesn't eat aiptasia's as a I'd hoped, but completely harmless little fellow) (2-3 in)

1 Clark's Clownfish (about 1 1/2 inches)

1 Coral Banded Shrimp (2 in)

I wasn't sure what tests to perform, so I did Nitrate and pH. I can do more if it would be helpful. The nitrate was surprisingly high, but I'm not really TOO surprised, since, because of complications, I have been unable to do a water change since setup. Tomorrow I may be able to get one ready.

Nitrate: 25-50 ppm

pH: 8.3

The latest addition to the tank is the filefish, who is completely innocuous and in good health.
I hope this is enough info. If not, let me know and I'll get anything else you need to know. Thank you for any help you may be able to provide!

I will let Christine answer this for treatment and advice...I'm jumping in because the Nitrates are making me nervous.


You have to get a water change done on that tank ASAP to get the nitrates down. I'm am sure that is why the Sailfin's MHLLE is starting up again. The water quality is poor right now and it's stressing the fish out.

How much water could you have ready by tomorrow? Is it being heated/salted/aerated now? If need be I will bring enough water down to do a change tomorrow. As of now I'm thinking I'm not going to the meeting (it's already 2AM and 5 hours in the car plus the meeting time with chest pain will be too much for me) but I will come down and help your fish since you are only 1 hour each way. I think I can handle that tomorrow.

Christine,

Should we pull the yellow tang and get him in a hospital tank? (oy...please no...are you thinking fallow?...that is so many fish to deal with :(

Do you think a water change and 'wait, watch and see' might be ok if we get the nitrates down and add vitamins and garlic to the food?

Tyler, if you need me to, I can do the hospital tank here but you might enjoy the experience of working with this yourself. If it's a problem let me know. I have a 33long, 40breeder or a 55g you can borrow and other fixings for it.

Ammonia, nitrates and SG are things that might be helpful to know as well. (If you are lacking in test kits you can have whatever you need from the supply I have here. Let me know what you need).

Christine, This is not a fish only tank. This 120 with 40gallon sump has corals in it as well. It was an established tank that was moved around the time of MACNA and reset up at Tyler's. I warned about the tank cycling because the substrate was disturbed. The rock and substrate were kept in water during the move but I'm thinking nitrobacter could be a possibility. Do you think just the lack of changing the water is raising the nitrates?

If I have something that Christine suggest, and you need it, we could meet you guys half way tomorrow.

Good luck with the fish.

Personally, I feel quite badly about the inability to do a water change, and I understand the nitrates are extremely high. After I get the RO unit set up this afternoon I will immediately begin to prepare some water.

I have a 30 gallon tank (3ft by 1ft by 18 in tall) which might be used as a quarantine, if this is large enough.
I also have a vitamin supplement which I am loath to use until a water change can be done. I feed small quantities 2 or three times a day, including frozen food, algae sheets, and all different kinds of dry food.

One thing I'm curious about: Linda, did your tank ever have nitrates when it was at your house? I know that my 20 gallon never did, pretty much for as long as it was set up.

Ok, several things:

1. Nitrates issue: this is probably a sort of secondary cycle going on. In those cases, sometimes the biological filter will keep right up with things, sometimes not, and in this case, not. Remember too that your biological filter is largely in the rock (otherwise all those barebottom tanks wouldn't work, no?) It's just the moving around and not letting the tank settle before the fish addition. Do check ammonia levels (are the gills moving quicker than normal?), and watch nitrite and nitrate. Water changes are the cure for now, and your biological filter should catch up. Also, be careful not to do anything to make it worse--those nitrates are coming from somewhere, so when you feed, go easy, rinse frozen foods well, all the usual good husbandry. The nitrate level, if that is correct, is not going to kill off everything in your tank in a day--but do try to get it under control.

2. Yellow tang with black spots: if you can get him out, do set up a hospital tank and treat with formalin. As a constant immersion, use 15-25 parts per million every other day for three days, doing a 50% water change on the days you don't treat. Keep the water well aerated and below 80 degrees. Now, we have two ways to go--the practical way and the "do everything perfectly" way. Turbellarian worms (black spot) have a life cycle which involves a phase on the fish and a phase in the substrate for at least 10 days. So, unless you get all the fish out for two weeks, the system will still be carrying turbellarians. That's the best way--everyone out, treat with formalin, then back in after two weeks. Now, the problem is this isn't always practical, so you weigh your risks--most fish can handle a low level of infestation without problems, and you could have a happy tank for a long while. Or, the worms will come back. You need to decide whether you want to take that risk. Either way, the tank showing signs is unlikely to get better without treatment.

3. HLLE: since we don't know what causes it, again, good husbandry is key, and symptomatic treatment as necessary. Definitely supplement the food with Selcon or another fatty acid, and add vitamins to the food. Garlic may help and can't hurt; beta-glucan the same.

Ok, good luck and keep us posted.

Tyler,

When did you add the 1 seagrass/bristletail filefish? where did you get him and did you QT him?

To me I feel the work involved with QT'ing an incoming fish is much easier then the work that is involved now.

Christine,
Do you know about that trick that one of the Adam's (Blundell or Cesnales) do with adding a container of sand in the fuge? Something like using a plastic shoe box size and maybe putting in holes? I remember something about it reducing nitrates very well but I can remember the details on how to do it at the moment. hmmmm... yoo-hooo? Adam's? you around?

I had gotten that sailfin tang about 2 years ago and he looked like someone put him in a blender..this hlle was that bad. He left me with dimples on his cheeks. (I'll look for photos of him) I know Tyler can get him to stop eroding by increasing you water quality.

Tyler,
It's poopy that you are going though all of this but you are going to be learning a lot...and with that you will be able to help other folks in the future. 

I feel bad because I wasn't able to get the Kole-Steril from Steven Pro from you in time to help with the water. I know giving you the RO/DI unit will help but until George gets the rubber gasket and hooks it up you are still going to struggle with all of this.

I have 80gallons of water ready to go...it won't take more then 1/2 hour to do the water change at your place. Let me know.

It looks like you've got some good advise already.
As for the sand tub... have to credit that to Cesnales. It's basically a remote deep sand bed. You take a tupperware container fill it with sand, and sink it in your sump. I imagine it would take weeks before you'd see it have an effect, but the idea is to create an anaerobic area for denitrification (a place to convert nitrate back into nitrogen gas).

I'd be more inclined to look into waste. I'm guessing you have high nitrates because of something like overfeeding, and too small of a clean up crew. So in addition to the upcoming water change I'd look at your filtration methods and how they are working compared to the amount of food you are feeding.

Adam

I had an very informative conversation with some friends from the club today, and I've got some new information... Yes, I am overfeeding significantly, so I'm cutting back to 1 feed per day.

Linda, we could really use some water right now, as we need to talk in person about some of these issues. The sea grass filefish... was... kind of a weak moment. I'd done some cursory research regarding care, including the supposition that they eat aiptasia, and are completely harmless to corals. I also thought I would never see one in a store, and would have to buy him from some online place. I saw him at Fishtopia, got very excited, and my parents (who had heard of this fish) really wanted me to buy him then and there. SO... yes, I had a choice, but thinking it was okay, and he seemed to be in excellent health, I bought him and introduced him to the tank that same day... foregoing quarantine, unfortunately.

I did make a good judgement of his health, however, as he has been very active and colorful, but not eating aiptasia. This points again to the overfeeding issue, though- the yellow tang in the tank had so much to eat I NEVER saw him eat tank algae, only what I gave him.

I will call you, Linda, and we can try to work out what to do with water/tang, etc.

It's my understanding, Ms. Williams, that right now the black ich is priority one, and the HLLE is priority two. I'm not sure I can get out the YT without tearing apart my rockwork... the very thought of which is turning my stomach as I type... but it might be done if necessary.

I need to speak with Linda tomorrow about what's to be done before I do anything, but as soon as something is arranged I will post it here.

Thanks for the input.

Tyler Smith.

 Hi Tyler,

Adam Cesnales here.  Yup.  Lots of good advice.  I am always suspect of a high nitrate reading in a tank with plenty of live rock, even in the face of recent move or over feeding.  Have you confirmed the nitrate with another kit?  Nitrate kits read high when they get old or are exposed to heat (stored under an aquarium stand).  I agree with Christine that the Nitrates should not be cause for a great deal of alarm.  It isn't ideal, but it isn't that harmful in the short term.

As for the black spot, I also with Christine.  I would do a FW dip on the way to a quarantine tank for ALL fish and observe them carefully while in quarantine for any signs of re-infestation.  If they do get re-infested, repeat the dip.  Make sure the FW dip water is the same temperature and pH of the tank water.  The pH can usually be accomplished by adding a couple of tablespoons of salt mix to the water (this small amount will not reduce the effectiveness of the dip).  IMO, formalin is optional.  It won't hurt, but it is a nasty chemical.  Be sure not to get it on your skin!  Another thing to note:  This is one case where biological cleaners (cleaner shrimp or neon gobies) may be beneficial.  Cleaner critters are generally not able to pick off tiny imbedded parasites like ich, but your worms are large external parasites.  If you can't get all of the fish out or if you have fish that won't tolerate FW dips, do consider a cleaner shrimp or neon goby.

As for the HLLE.... Are you running carbon?  Carbon dust has been implicated in HLLE.  If so, removing the carbon usually fixes it in short order.  You can also run the carbon inside a wooly filter bag to catch the dust.  In most other cases, as Linda indicated it can be from poor water quality or it can be from poor nutrition.  If the HLLE persists after the water quality is improved, try adding nori to the fishes diet as well as Ocean Nutrition Pygmy Angel Formula (it has lots of marine algae).

If you do confirm your high nitrates, just a small amount of sand should indeed fix it.  You want fine grained sand (like beach sand) that is made of aragonite or other calcific material.  Beach sand and normal play sand are NOT ideal.  If you can get Southdown or Yardright brand play sand (it will be labelled "From the Caribbean"), these are great and cheap.

The sand should be a minimum of 3" deep.  A container about 6" x 6" should provide plenty of sand area for your 120.  Be careful to make the container deep enough and to position it in your sump so that it does not get blown all over and sucked into pumps.  No light or algae is necessary for it to work.  Blundell is correct, it will take at least a few days or a couple of weeks to work, but when it does, the nitrate will plummet fast.

Hope this all helps, and good luck!

Adam Cesnales

Tyler,

Another thought.. I saw your distress at the idea of removing the fish. There is a very easy, reliable trick.... Hook and line! You have to find very small (#22 or so) BARBLESS fish hooks. Just bait with some mysis or some kind of food that will stick on the hook, and go fishing!

Barbless hooks are made for catch and release fishing and are designed for the fish to be able to spit them out, and they will, so have a net ready! If this sounds cruel, compare a little pinch in the lip to hours of tearing the tank apart and chasing with a net. It really is a great way to go.

I just caught my regal angel this way so he could get a shot of antibiotics. I have used this trick on every thing from 1" damsels up to 7" tangs with great success. The only trouble is if you have an extremely aggressive eater who constantly steals the bait! If so, remove that fish first and hold him in a bucket of water until you catch your target fish.

Adam

Thanks Adam, good to hear from you :)

I have heard of the fish hook trick myself and actually I think I will be trying it myself in short order as I have a royal gramma that is acting strangely and would benefit from some better observation. The other option is to drain the tank, but that is so labor intensive often we don't bother. And Adam is absolutely right--remember that stress makes things much worse for the fish, so the hook, if it works, is better.

The other nice thing about the hook method is that it only works on an actively eating fish: SO, it means there is an incentive to treat illnesses sooner rather than later, before the fish is too far gone to be recoverable.

So yes--I'd get the tang out first and treat (do the math for the dosing to make sure you get it right), then the HLLE may resolve on its own with better nutrition. I had not heard about the carbon-HLLE correlation but putting carbon in a polyfilter bag certainly isn't going to hurt anything. Excellent recommendation.

Tyler, if you want to remove the fish for treatment I have the pumps, hosing and barrels to drain the tank and refill it within minutes.

I will bring a few brands to test kits so you can compare the results. We will do significant water change tomorrow and can you add a box of sand to the sump as well. The Sailfin improved while being in my care and I had bags of carbon in the refugium...I think carbon enhances the water quality. I also run carbon in every tank in my house and most have fish that recovered from MHLLE as well. Maybe it's "carbon dust" that is the culprit...I rinse the carbon in the bags well before putting them into the tank.

Tyler, I have tons of stuff here, just let me know what you need.
do you need any nori?
What foods do you feed and do you need anything?
Are you running carbon?
Do you want me to take any fish home for treatment?
If you are going to treat what supplies do you need?

I'll come over tomorrow/Wed. after 4pm with water and whatever supplies you need.

Great... thanks for all the responses.

No, I'm not running carbon, to be honest, the only real filtration in the tank is an ETSS skimmer. I feed every kind of food you can think of pretty much, 5 or so different varieties of dry, 3 different kinds of frozen, and nori.

The yellow tang has lost almost all the black spots, but I understand that just means the ich life cycle is continuing. Aside from looking a tad thin, she still looks and behaves fine.

I'm not sure what supplies I need... I have a skimmer, powerhead, 30 gallon tank... I'm not sure what else I will need. I also have some Melafix. I must say I'm intrigued by the hook idea. It sounds very interesting.

Packed up water and equipment to change the water and brought a large supply of test kits down to Tyler tonight.  We changed about 70gallons out. 

 Tested water after we did the change and  Ph 8.2, Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia all were 0.  SG was making me crazy..not sure if something was off with 2 refractomers....I picked up a small vial of calibration solution from the MOFIB booth awhile ago..what should be the reading with that be?  If it's 35ppt I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong.  Is it 35ppt where  I tune in the refractometer?

Scraping the glass helped clear up what looked like an algae issue.  Additional powerhead/flow could benefit this tank to keep things from settling on the the rocks..but all and all not bad imo.

before





After

The yellow tang didn't appear skinny or thin to me...here is a head on shot to see hopefully see some of the width to this fish

I didn't observe any black specks on the fish this evening. Tyler is going to keep watch on it so see if it returns.  We decided to hold off on removing the fish at this point.  If the specks reappear I will help Tyler remove the fish and keep the tank fallow for at least 2 weeks+

Would all the specks drop off so soon?  If so, how soon could they return?  I've never see this before in person so I'm not sure what to expect.

The Sailfins MHLLE/Hole it the Head? is shown here.  We can keep better track on if it increases by having the photos.


 
A new issue has come up with the Sailfin.  Can you see the white round globs the tip of it's pectoral fins?  Do you think it could possibly be  Lymphocystis?  There are not many at all..maybe 3-4 specks total. I've only delt with this twice and it was a few years ago (it was on large angels and they were fully covered..so I'm not positive what I'm looking at) .  The fish I cared for successfully cleared up by water quality and nutrition.

Can you tell by the photo what it is?  Do you think it's lymp or could it be something else?

 

for fun here is a photo of the filefish.  Wow!  What a little flirt!!  He is very personable and loved to make his presence known.

Wow linda, a traveling vet! It doesn't look like it was too easy to get those tanks of water in the truck. Impressive

Oh, you got a picture of my file! Awesome.

All right... the continuing drama...

Soooo... the black ich has been going in cycles- disappearing almost completely, then all the spots return. This has occurred more times than I can count.

HOWEVER there have been no fatalities (other than a flametail blenny, and I think there's no connection), and none of the other fish have spots.

The yellow tang behaves with complete normality, eating, swimming constantly, and maintaining full color. Water parameters are within acceptable ranges, and I did a water change this afternoon. Can I ignore the flatworms at this point? Or is it still a problem? Is it possible I could kill it with Stop Parasites?

Finally, if I give someone a frag from my tank, will that frag automatically introduce the parasite into their tank? How does this stuff spread??

Hi guys, let me go back a few posts as well for the benefit of eveyrone else.

In the pics above--the sailfin's head lesion does look like the result of HLLE, which has lots of possible causes but no one knows fo rsure what the etiology is. the answer for that is just good water quality, excellent nutrition (vitamin and Selcon supplements), and time. The tank does look like it could benefit from some more flow. One thing I've learned after a few years doing this is adding more flow than you think you need often solves a lot of problems--it gets detritus up in suspension where it can be processed, the fish seem to like it (get them in shape! :), brings food to corals...all good.

The sailfin's fin "bubbles" are lymphocystis. Nothing to do here either, just let it run its course. It is a virus, so there is no treatment. If one were ambitious, one could snip the areas out of the fin, but this is so minor, and the HLLE is present as well, that the stress would cause more damage.

The tang with Black Ich (Turbellarian worms): this is classic, if the fish isn't treated with an antiparasitic, the symptoms will be cyclic--when the fish is stressed, the immune system slacks off, the worms reproduce to where you can see them, the fish gets better, the worms disappear. While unsightly, as long as the fish is happy and eating and fat, I'd just leave it be. If you ever have to get the fish out for some other reason I'd take the opportunity to treat it, but for now, no. As for frags, I wouldn't worry. corals can't carry turbellarians, but bivalves can, so don't share clams. Be aware though that turbellarians can be free in the tank, so your substrate may have them. If you share corals, inspect them well, especially their substrates.

Thank you! I appreciate it. As for the lymph, it has completely disappeared. At this moment, there are no worms.