Friday, April 18, 2014 Register   
You are here:  Forums » Ask the Experts » Marine Health and Disease--fishes, inverts, and humans! » Clownfish growout deaths!!!  
MASNA4

Community
Clownfish growout deaths!!!
Last Post 02-06-2014 01:21 AM by Floyad. 22 Replies.
AddThis - Bookmarking and Sharing Button Printer Friendly
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Author Messages
radiobot01User is Offline
Plankton
Role:
Posts: 34
Private Message Send Private Message

--
11-08-2009 11:04 AM
    Over the last week I have had about 5-6 deaths in one of my batches of clownfish. I have about I would guess 400 fry on my system currently. I also have 3 sets of adult pairs on it as well. Recently the anthelia of one of my adult pairs has started to receed a bit. I put a  reef light above the tank which didnt help it at all.

    The clowns that had died have all been very thin and their bellies are empty. When I feed, I would say about 99% of my clowns swim right to the top and eat. I have a few that swim normally but stay closer to the bottom. These guys bellies look thin. I am not sure if this is due to the anthelia dieing off or not. I have added a UV filter as well as removed the anthelia rock from the spawning parents tank into another reef tank I have.

    Could this be something from the anthelia die off that is affecting my clowns? Bacterial infection or a parasite? Like I said 99% of my Juvi's are swimming happily and eat like pigs. Should I treat with melafix as a precaution. it has been suggested as this shouldnt have any negative effects even it if doesnt fix the problem with the thin clowns. One notable mention is that since I pulled the anthelia and did a big water change, I have not had any die on me. Thoughts are greatly appreciated!
    Matt PedersenUser is Offline
    Copepod
    Role:
    Duluth, MN
    Posts: 61
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-11-2009 10:25 AM
    I don't have any answers, but I can relay a couple "concepts"...

    One one hand, this *sounds* like something that some breeders go through, and it has a variety of "Street names"...wasting disease, cluster purging, toxic tank syndrome. The treatment that seems to work for the commercial breeders is to move the fish out of the system and into a different one. Usually you're losing a lot more fish though, i.e. 3-5 per day, or even more.

    Another possiblity, since you did only say 5-6 deaths out of 400 over a week, tells me this is just normal...afterall, not ALL of the fish make it. You haven't even culled yet I assume. I would suggest culling out the ones that stay at the bottom and look thin...they might have disease, or they might just be loosing in the competition. If it's disease, better to get these fish out so you can hopefully break the chain...yes, that's a harsh truth about breeding, but you make such targetted sacrifices for the greater good of the other 300+ babies.
    "You only need to raise one..."
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-11-2009 09:09 PM
    I havent pulled any of the weaker ones out yet. I should try that and maybe just treat them instead ofthe whole system. One question I had is if I do treat with say melafix, will this hurt the healthy ones? I do have 3 pairs of broodstock on this system. I know I shouldnt and do have a smaller system I should hopefully have water in and cycled shortly. What will treathing the whole system with this do to my broodstock for breeding purposes? I have heard of stories of failed breeding clowns as treatments with other stuff has led to bad egg's or even sterilized them for a long time.
    Matt PedersenUser is Offline
    Copepod
    Role:
    Duluth, MN
    Posts: 61
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-12-2009 12:45 PM
    Well I wouldn't just go treating stuff just to treat stuff...you have to know what you're treating and why. Christine hopefully could shed more light on that. I will say that treating "sick" fish in a group will not hurt the "healthy" ones....afterall, if the treatment hurt healthy fish, how would it make sick fish healthy? However, treatments can cause all sorts of secondary problems, which again, is why I don't ever suggest willy nilly random treatments for a problem you don't have identified.

    I WILL say that it *may* certainly make more sense to pull the fish off the main system for treatment, and it *may* also make more sense to isolate the "weak" individuals and treat them, but the flipside of that is that the "stronger" individuals may not be showing symptoms of the disease yet...so you *may* have to treat the whole group.

    Again, all this talk of treatment is pretty useless in my book if you don't know what the real problem is. Thus, medication may not yet be the answer...look at husbandry first - might not really be a 'disease' at all.

    FWIW,

    Matt
    "You only need to raise one..."
    ChristineWilliamsUser is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 40
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-12-2009 01:18 PM
    I'd agree with matt with a few additional comments:

    If you haven't been culling any of your offspring, and you are only getting 5-6 deaths, then you're still in good shape. The biology of fishes (or any othe rorganism for that matter) is not such that every hatched egg will survive. Cull out the weaker ones and if you don't euthanize them and you do want to see what happens, put them in a clean new system with nothing more than good food and clean water and good husbandry and see what develops. They may do better (meaning they were getting outcompeted for food), they may get worse with new signs of disease (which you can then start to analyze and treat) or they may continue to waste away. I wouldn't go adding meds to the system if only a fraction of a percent of your stock is in trouble.

    Second--yes, do separate your broodstock from your growout systems. Much easier to control.

    Third--if you have some reason to believe an Anthelia going south is hurting something, running carbon will do more good than UV. My personal feeling is that UV is highly overrated for most systems--it only works on pathogens in the water column, If the light is strong enough and IF there is sufficient contact time. Most pathogens are primarily on the animal itself or in the substrate, not floating around.

    Keep us posted--
    Scott TomkoUser is Offline

    Avatar
    Goby
    Role:
    Posts: 214
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-12-2009 09:24 PM
    I'm much less of an expert than these two, but I'd agree that it sounds normal. We're only supposed to get 50ish salable fish per month per breeding pair.  Most of them are supposed to be sub-par.
    I just realized that this is the 'ask the experts' section.  If the mods want to delete this post, it would be appreciated.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-12-2009 11:55 PM
    Culling/ pulling out the weak and killing them seems to be something I can not do. Im not in the military, but never leave a fish/man behind sounds good to me. 50 per month per pair may be the average. But I can not accept(emotionally) deaths going from 150+ survivers through meta every 2 weeks(300+ per month) going to 50. There has to be something. I grealty appreciate the feedback guy and gals. It is greatly appreciated. The reason I am concerned it may be either a parasite or an infection is the ones near the bottom dont even seem interested in food. I would say for last week it was about 5 deaths, so far this week, I am up to 7. Decisions decisions.... If I freeze one of the dead fish, is there a place that can diagnose what killed the fish?
    ChristineWilliamsUser is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 40
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-13-2009 01:25 PM
    I sympathize with you, believe me. Having to euthanize animals is never pleasant. So let's say you have two choices then: one, you cull weaker animals in a humane way (invest in a bottle of Finquel) and concentrate your efforts on the healthy ones which are genetically superior and more likely to survive, or two, you pull the sickly ones into another system to give them a second chance, devote a lot of time into them, and maybe they live and maybe they don't, but that will be time spent away from the animals that are likely to survive, and you'll still likely be losing animals. Nature is not kind, and not every egg is going to make it to adulthood no matter how good your husbandry is. If you want to breed fishes, unfortunately you have to toughen your skin a bit (spoken by someone with decidedly un-tough skin). If the loss is truly just attrition due to mutations and malformations, you won't be able to help that.

    To freeze a fish and send if for pathology--yes you can do that, but if I were in your shoes I don't know that I would bother. First, it will be expensive, and it would be better to actually send them a live, ailing fish than a dead one. Plus, most of the fish diagnostic labs cater to farmed fish and food fish, so getting them to look at your clownfish might be tough (I haven't tried). If you have a local hobbyist (or better an exotics vet) that is competent enough to perform a necropsy for you that might be helpful. My gut feeling here is that this is natural selection working, not pathology.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-17-2009 04:46 AM
    Thank you guys/Gals for your responses. GReatly appreciate it. I have not done anything about this recently and the # of deaths has gone down. Have not had any in a few days that I have seen. Most of my time has been dedicated to getting my broodstock system up and cycled so I can move the adults over.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-22-2009 04:19 PM
    Quick update. Things were good for a day or 2 then got worse. Some of my adult pairs started to look bad as well. My true perc's were not eating and had some visable spots of redness and some slime on the spots that were affected. Looked like they rubbed themselfs on something. Spots were above their eyes and on the top of the white stripe. My other set started to get puffy lips and tried to eat but just couldnt. Yesterday I took the adice of a fellow breeder with a setup similure to mine. He has 2k plus black&whites on the go and had issues similure to mine. I Started to treat my system with melafix. Within hours of treatment, I saw a big improvement. You could tell they were feeling better as they had their top fins sticking back up again. Will let you know how it goes.

    All the babies now look good on 1 day of treatment. Pretty much all come to the top and almost jump out to get the food as I feed them.
    Scott TomkoUser is Offline

    Avatar
    Goby
    Role:
    Posts: 214
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-22-2009 10:43 PM
    Good work getting a quick treatment. That is great that a natural medication worked! Who's the breeder? Does he do any foruming?
    Scott
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 04:50 AM
    He does on RC.... Hopefully it works, If I lose one of my True perc parents, I may shoot my self.(Not really)....
    ChristineWilliamsUser is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 40
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 01:09 PM
    Melafix is a tea tree oil extract which is considered a "natural remedy" and in humans has been shown to have antibacterial and antifungal effects topically. My usual inclination is to stick to medications that have data behind them, dosing information, etc. However, that doesn't mean that alternate therapies don't work, and if in this case it did, then that's great.

    The important thing to note here from your last few posts though is this--you said the parents were starting to get ill as well. This is the kind of information that really helps narrow down the cause of problems--if the broodstock is sick, clearly it isn't natural attrition of offspring, and there must be a caue, either environmental or infective. Good work.

    Your description of the adults sounds bacterial to me, so the tea tree oil may do the trick. If not you can move up to something like neomycin or kanamycin (my drug of choice for skin infections).
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 05:45 PM
    Thank you, I may quarentine the adults with the issues shortly and go to one of the drugs you listed.... It would sicken me to lose productive fish regardless of how much they would cost to replace. Te big problem right now is timing. I got away soon to be with family or thanksgiving. Really bad timing.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 06:18 PM
    Question, should i try to treat the whole system or just the adults who look affected? Again i assume if the adults have it, the juvi's on the system would have it to... Thank you. i am not very good at dieases with my fishies as you can tell.... If I treated the whole system, I have about 100+lbs of live rock, will it be affected in anyway for filtration purposes?
    ChristineWilliamsUser is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 40
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 07:33 PM
    Yes, the biological filter will be compromised--you cannot use these kinds of anitibiotics in a display. You will need to pull the adults out into a hospital tank and do it there, with water changes to maintain water quality.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-23-2009 08:24 PM
    Thank you so much!.... Hopefully If needed, I can find one of those locally.. Thanks again.
    Scott TomkoUser is Offline

    Avatar
    Goby
    Role:
    Posts: 214
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-24-2009 01:42 AM
    How are they doing? It sounded like the melafix did the trick. Was the fix short lived? Let me know if you need any help during the holidays. I'm going to be in town for the duration. So I'm free to do feedings or anything like that if you are going away.
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-24-2009 03:01 AM
    It did help the babies very much so... The adults it appeared to help for a bit. But my false percs lips are Huge.... What I really think happened is the adults introduced something to the system that prolly got worse with all the feedings I did with the youngs. Although my water quality is still really good at this point, very low nitrates... I think I will also try testing this with my backup test hit tomorrow to verify the amount.

    Thank you for the offer, I may call you if needed. Hopefully I can get this cleared up before I leave...
    radiobot01User is Offline
    Plankton
    Role:
    Posts: 34
    Private Message Send Private Message

    --
    11-28-2009 05:22 PM
    Just wanted to say thank you. Although I am not out of the woods quite yet. It looks like the K-mycin is working. The male can can close his mouth now and looks pretty good. Still a sore spot on his lower lip, But looking much better. The other adult clowns look really good and almost completely better.

    Also the babies are looking very healthy now. Looks like the Melafix worked on them as I did not use the K-mycin on them....
    You are not authorized to post a reply.
    Page 1 of 212 > >>


    Active Forums 4.3
    Syndicate   

    Copyright 2013 MASNA   |  Privacy Statement  |  Terms Of Use  |  Contact Us  |  Sitemap
    All images and content © Copyright 2009 MASNA, Inc. and/or its suppliers. All rights reserved.